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A CONVERSATION WITH AMBASSADOR
BORISLAV MILOSEVIC, SLOBODAN'S BROTHER
[Posted 2 June 2002]
NOTE: On May 24th I spoke via three way telephone with
Borislav Milosevic, Yugoslav Ambassador to Russia from
1998-2000 and before that Ambassador to Algeria.
Ambassador Milosevic understands English well, hence what
I said didn't have to be translated. However, the
Ambassador preferred to speak Serbo-Croatian, which was
kindly translated by Vladimir Krsljanin, International
Secretary of the Socialist Party of Serbia. A few times
Ambassador Milosevic spoke English; it is indicated in
-- Jared Israel
[To make it easier to follow the conversation we
indented Jared Israel's remarks.]
Jared Israel: Mr. Ambassador it's a great honor to
speak with you.
For our readers, let me say that your brother,
Slobodan Milosevic, has just won the Sholokhov prize,
named for Mikhail Sholokhov, author of the great
Russian novel, 'And Quiet Flows the Don.' Could you
say a bit more about the prize?
Borislav Milosevic: Yes. It is perhaps the most
distinguished Russian award, given to artists and
political leaders of outstanding achievement. Today at
the award ceremony I accepted the prize for Slobodan
Milosevic because, as the writer Yuri Bondarev said in
bestowing this honor, Slobodan is being held in the
dungeon of The Hague.
Jared Israel: Dungeon is the word, isn't it? They
don't even let him meet with Chris Black, the head of
his lawyers' committee. And his living conditions are
outrageous - terrible food, no exercise, no right to
see his own doctors - or any heart specialist - even
though his heart condition is a matter of record. And
forced to be in court all day and to cross-examine
witnesses virtually every day, week after week, which
Borislav Milosevic: I think this award will further
strengthen the fighting spirit of Slobodan Milosevic and
his courage as well.
Jared: Also it suggests that the Russians see
President Milosevic's resistance as important to
their own experience.
Borislav Milosevic: Yes. The greater part of Russian
society strongly supports Slobodan and practically nobody
approved his delivery to The Hague, not even those
Rightist parties who were hostile to his government. Both
houses of the Russian parliament voted overwhelmingly to
condemn his kidnapping. Even the mainstream newspapers
publish articles critical of The Hague.
Russian people consider Slobodan Milosevic a hero of
resistance to imperialist intervention, a patriot who
defends his country and his people.
Jared: This support from Russia is very
encouraging to me.
I interviewed your brother on March 23rd 2001,
just before he was arrested.
During that interview he said that one of the
things US and West European leaders hated about
Yugoslavia was the way you handled the question of
national and religious group relations. There had
been so much conflict in the past. Some groups had
been organized by the Nazis and earlier by the
Ottoman Empire to attack Serbs, and Roma and Jews as
well of course - and yet in Yugoslavia, and this is
still true in Serbia, you had schools in 24 different
languages and court proceeding in nine languages.
When I was in Serbia this past year I saw that there
is still an attitude of mutual appreciation among
It seems to me that the strategy of the New World
Empire that has attacked you is to stir up hatred.
They use the guidelines laid down by the Nazis,
finding points of weakness in ethnic or religious
groups that will allow the Empire's mass media and
operatives to play on cultural traits that if left
alone wouldn't necessarily be a problem. They stir up
hatred in one culture against another in a hideous
way, especially appealing to groups that were once in
a dominant position, empowering their worst elements.
The Empire does this more effectively than the Nazis
because they have much more sophisticated mass media.
Perhaps the worst thing is that the mass media
romanticizes racist violence by calling it revenge.
to the media lies, (1)
your government never engaged in racism. You always
tried to promote fraternity. This was clear in
speech at Kosovo Field in 1989 (2)
and before then too, despite the extremely
Some people say Russia and Serbia are linked, that
Serbia is little Russia. And so the fact that the
Russian people, after what they've been through, the
terrible trauma of the 1990s, the fact that they can
see as their beacon this man who stands for social
justice and tolerance, this gives me hope. Because
there is another possible beacon - ethnic hatred,
anti-Semitism, which has reared its head in Russia in
the past, a Black Hundreds solution.
Borislav Milosevic: You're completely right. There was
no kind of discrimination in Yugoslavia, and while some
former Yugoslav Republics have become virtual mono-ethnic
states, Serbia hosts a million refugees
of all national and religious groups and one third of
our population is not ethnic Serbs. (3)
Serbia did not abolish the autonomy of Kosovo in 1989
as some so-called experts claim. Only certain extreme and
inappropriate elements of statehood were removed from
what was after all a provincial government. This was done
to prevent the de facto creation of a separate state in
Jared: Which is precisely what NATO and the UN are
supporting now - a separate Kosovo.
Borislav Milosevic: Yes.
Kosovo Albanians were not deprived of any human or
cultural rights in 1989. The same was true of people in [the
Serbian province of] Vojvodina. In fact, Kosovo Albanians
continued to have cultural rights unequalled in the rest
The accusations of loss of autonomy were contrived.
The secessionists organized or forced ethnic Albanians to
State institutions and set up parallel institutions
for purely political reasons. (4)
Everyone knows that schools, universities, the press,
hospitals and TV were maintained in Kosovo in the
Albanian language, even during this decade-long boycott.
The secessionists organized this boycott to provide
Western media with provocative
images and to create a no-alternative situation for
Albanians. All political manipulation. (4a)
This is clear from the leaflet which Slobodan
Milosevic showed The Hague 'court' while he was cross-examining
[ethnic Albanian leader] Ibrahim Rugova. The leaflet,
which was signed by the KLA and Rugova, ordered ethnic
Albanians to leave Kosovo during the bombing. Do you see
the game they played?
This demonstrates their dual purpose: creating the
false appearance that Serbia was causing ethnic Albanians
to suffer, so that this could be broadcast to the NATO
countries, and fostering a situation within Kosovo where
compromise was near impossible. This was behind
everything they did, including the so-called Racak
massacre and the exodus of the ethnic Albanian population
during the NATO aggression.
[ Note: regarding the above, please see, 'The
Racak Hoax' at
Albanians Fled During NATO Bombing,' at
Jared Israel: And once they got the Albanians to
leave, they put them in refugee camps under KLA
control, with NATO's blessing. Even the Western media
had stories reporting that these camps featured non-stop
Borislav Milosevic: Yet during the three months in
this Hague 'court', we have seen one after another
witness testify they never even heard of the Kosovo
Jared Israel: It would embarrass NATO. They claim
they are fighting terrorism, but these people are all
members - or leaders - of a terrorist group.
Borislav Milosevic: Yes. It is a problem.
At the very beginning of the trial it seemed as if Mr.
May, whom they call 'judge,' was trying to create the
impression of impartiality. But now he openly behaves as
an extension of the prosecutor. He prompts and assists
witnesses, allowing them every liberty including making
political speeches. But he cuts off Slobodan Milosevic
and does not allow him to conduct cross-examination fully
or to express his opinion.
This is very alarming. It creates a precedent for
violating accepted legal principles including the
impartiality of courts, the very basis of law. It
requires the strongest international protest.
This on top of the fact that Slobodan Milosevic is a
head of state, overthrown by foreign money and then
kidnapped by foreign agents. Who is next?
Jared Israel: I think this so-called trial makes
the Reichstag Fire case look good. At least Dimitrov
was allowed to present his case.
Borislav Milosevic: Yes, this Hague 'court' behaves
like someone's instrument. Since its foundation it has
been a tool of aggression against Yugoslavia.
In some of my statements here in Russia I often say
that the Yugoslav crisis was created in order to
reorganize the whole of international relations in
accordance with American interests and expansionism and
it was done in a very conscious way.
Jared Israel: You know, also it was a step towards
the encirclement of Russia, wasn't it? Because isn't
it true that those who would attack Russia need to
consolidate their hold in the Balkans first? And if
you look at what has happened, NATO now surrounds
Russia from Central Asia to the Baltic. They have
penetrated a dozen countries. (5)
Borislav Milosevic: The aggression in Yugoslavia was
an attempt to impose new International rules to justify
NATO, a regional military organization, usurping the
sovereign rights of countries outside its previously
claimed zone of responsibility. So military and
geopolitical expansion is presented as humanitarian peace
making. Terrorist attacks are launched and then
intervention is threatened if a country defends itself,
and all this is justified by a whole new interpretation
of international law so that now even the United Nations
is employed to legitimize geopolitical expansion.
There were in the past many other examples of
violations of the UN charter: Vietnam, Granada, and so
on, and this includes the sending of Russian troops to
Afghanistan. However, none of these instances were
sanctioned by the Security Council.
In this sense, the Yugoslav case was something new, an
attempt to create an international legal framework to
justify the destruction of a country by terrorist forces.
And what took place after Sept. 11, that is NATO's
expansion into Central Asia, is a continuation.
So, in the Yugoslavia crisis we saw this new quality -
aggression condoned by international law and
international legal structures. And after September 11 we
see this process moving into a new stage. This makes it
clear that both the aggression against Yugoslavia and the
expansion of NATO from a West European organization into
Eastern Europe - these were of more than regional
Jared Israel: You know one of the interesting
things about September 11th is that here we see an
Empire which has organized most of the terrorism in
the world, mainly starting with Afghanistan, but they
claim to be leading a crusade against terrorism.
The whole strategy of the US intervention in
Afghanistan, beginning in 1979, was to promote
terrorism. They and the Saudis used the Wahhabi form
of Islam, pouring money into the madresses which
became schools training the terrorists that
subsequently plagued Chechnya, Bosnia, Kosovo,
Macedonia, Kashmir and I think they are in the Middle
East as well.
And this same terrorism which they have created -
and there is a lot of indication that Mr. bin
Laden is still connected with the CIA (6) although now
that NATO is entrenched in Central Asia they
conveniently stopped talking about him - this same
terrorism which they unleash in order to destabilize
areas is also used as an excuse to intervene. So it
is a tool of many purposes. Very convenient and very
American, because it's very American to have a tool
that does two things at once. A gadget. Terrorism is
a political gadget because on the one hand they can
use it to attack multiethnic society as they did in
Bosnia and then on the other hand they can use it as
the excuse to invade, as they are now doing with
But what shows their hypocrisy is - and you may or
may not know about this - the United States is still shipping
in millions of militant Islamic fundamentalist
into Afghanistan. Now why on earth would they be
doing this if they were sincerely fighting against
Islamic fundamentalism? They just used this terrorist
movement which they themselves had created as an
excuse to move in.
Just one other point that occurred to me when you
were talking is that the conduct and discourse of
your government, which was the last legitimate
government in Yugoslavia since what's there now was
created by the US, Germany and Norway - the
discourse of your government respected political
This New World Empire attacks the very possibility
of political discourse by shattering the link between
words and what they define - the Empire bombs people
and calls it humanitarian. They manufacture events -
we saw that with Racak.
And they simply rewrite
including manufacturing a fictional version of your
brother's famous 1989 speech. (1)
By doing these things they undermine the
possibility of rational discussion because truth
becomes whatever the powers-that-be and their media
portray as true - it's a function of what's shown on
TV. And at the same time, they reduce politics to
threat and violence and then they say, "Alas,
that's reality." But your brother takes ideas
One of the organizations orchestrating the *anti-human*
actions at The Hague is called, amazingly, Human
Rights Watch. I was present the first few days of
President Milosevic's 'trial' at The Hague and I got
to observe Richard Dicker, a top HRW bureaucrat, in
operation. Not only was he virtually the only person
representing the 'Tribunal' to the press - I mean, he
was Carla del Ponte's spokesman! - but both the press
and 'Tribunal' officials clearly deferred to him, and
he was often closeted with the prosecutors. I saw
this with my own eyes. I commented to one of the
senior reporters, "It looks like Dickers is
running the show," and the reporter laughed and
said, "Dickers *is* the show."
We have several articles in preparation about HRW.
Their board of directors is a Who's Who of the
Imperial establishment, including Warren Zimmermann,
the U.S. Ambassador who helped destroy Yugoslavia
including by sponsoring Alijah
Izetbegovic, the fundamentalist who devastated Bosnia
George Soros who boasts that he helped his father run
an extortion racket for the Nazis in Hungary during
World War Two, visiting Jewish families targeted for
death camps and demanding all their money in exchange
for safe passage. And now he runs a privatized
adjunct to the CIA. And this is *Human Rights* Watch.
HRW demonizes anybody who stands up to Imperial-organized
terror. When NATO sent the KLA to attack Macedonia,
Human Rights Watch condemned Macedonian security
troops for resisting.
When I interviewed President Milosevic I asked why
your government accepted defeat during the coup of
2000 instead of going to war against your opponents.
He said something like, "We wanted to avoid
being sucked into a civil war, which would allow NATO
to intervene on the grounds that Serbs are
'hopelessly violent.' Moreover, it is easy to kill
people but it isn't easy to bring them back."
Despite everything that has been done to you, you
resisted descending into a nightmare pit. You have
upheld political discourse against this Imperial
I read a thing the other day by Noam Chomsky, whom
a lot of people put on a pedestal. In it Chomsky
makes the sweeping generalization that counter-terrorism
"is terrorism carried out by the state."
But that's a very simple minded approach. Because,
contrary to what Chomsky says happened in Yugoslavia,
when you fought the terrorists in Kosovo - who were
themselves sponsored by NATO countries - when you
fought them, the
Yugoslav Army took causalities rather than
endangering civilians. (10)
Now one cannot say that *taking* causalities
rather than hurting civilian is the same as *not*
taking casualties and hurting the civilians. So all
counter-terror is not terror. There are choices in
the unfortunate situation of fighting terrorism as in
everything. And of course saying, "counter-terrorism
is state terror" has the effect of obscuring
these choices and may end up justifying terrorism -
because after all the terrorists are by definition no
worse than the people fighting them.
And this current tendency to reduce human
existence to one equivalent evil, where
'humanitarian' means 'bombing' and resistance to
terrorism is virtually by definition the same as
terror, where it is considered natural for ethnic
groups to try to kill each other and we are supposed
to root for whichever side the Imperial media has
portrayed as victims so that whatever they do is
justified as "revenge" against whatever
group has currently been labeled "just like
Hitler" - that, it seems to me, is what your
brother has been fighting. That is why I'm supporting
him. Sorry for my long speech!
Borislav Milosevic: [In English] Yes yes! No, no it's
very good speech!
[In Serbo-Croatian] The whole concept that your
government is trying to impose on the world is very
similar to what they preached when there was a bipolar
world, creating a positive force and its opponent, a
negative force, which today is called international
terrorism; and in that struggle everything is allowed.
And nobody may be neutral in that fight.
So in the conditions of world supremacy of one power,
the tendency for having new armaments of mass
destruction, new lethal arms is increasing and it leads
to development and strengthening of terrorism.
International terrorism cannot be suppressed by the use
of force alone, especially, as you correctly pointed out,
when the supreme power is itself organizing terrorism in
various ways in Kosovo, in Afghanistan, in Chechnya. So
international security can be created only on the basis
of universality, and not on the basis of isolation and
destruction of several countries that allegedly represent
some axis of evil.
And you have correctly pointed out that many
organizations defined as terrorist for instance and
especially in the Middle East, were created and are still
controlled by the American secret services.
And the American policy has created great harm in
other ways. There is the destruction
of the environment and the economy in Yugoslavia
because of the attack. And there is the increasing danger
of both nuclear accident and nuclear war.
Jared Israel: I think you made a very important
point, that the Empire wishes to create the
perception of a bipolar world, in which they are one
pole and the other is terrorism.
This Empire's thinkers are aware that every action
has an equal and opposite reaction. Because it's a
law of politics, isn't it? So opposition inevitably
develops. And because they are clever, instead of
only attacking the opposition, the Empire tries to
mold the opposition. How can they lose if they are
fighting something they control? Their own nightmare
image, in effect.
By declaring this war on terrorism, they are
fighting forces which they covertly control. Then
they also defend these terrorists, whom they actually
organized, by means of the 'human rights' apparatus
which they also control - and this ends up luring
some people into sympathy and support for the
Such people may not be thinking clearly or maybe
they've just fallen into the natural reaction that
"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - it's
a human trait to think that way. So we see people on
what considers itself the Left in the West making
heroes out of the Taliban and other terrorists. But
these terrorists are not fundamentally opponents of
this Empire. The Taliban, for example, are victims of
a guiding principle of this Empire, which is, "We
have no friends, we only have future victims."
This Empire may attack those whom it supported
yesterday, as the need arises. The
Taliban were supported by them (11)
and then abruptly they became a
target because the US needed an excuse or more
properly, the Empire needed an excuse, because it is
not the same as the US, this Empire is above the US
government, the Empire needed an excuse to move into
Central Asia. This was for geopolitical reasons. They
wanted to give Central Asian nations the
DOS (12) treatment,
which is penetration by Fifth Column organizations,
and we see this now going on in Central Asia
accompanied by military penetration and the
corruption of the remnants of the Soviet officer
corps disguised as military aid and training. The
goal is to build a force in these countries capable
of striking Russia. The Empire knows that Russia, in
alliance with China, is the primary real threat to
None of this is contradicted by Mr. Putin's
complete capitulation. As we saw with Macedonia,
capitulation does not protect a country from
attack by this Empire. Indeed, the experience of the
Taliban shows that even being created by this Empire
won't help if they decide to recycle you! (13)
So this move to complete the encirclement of
Russia is justified by the "war against
Terrorism." And so some people in the peace
movement, perhaps not giving enough thought to what's
going on, but simply reacting to the appearance,
which is that the Empire is attacking Islamic
fundamentalist terrorists - some people conclude that
the fundamentalists are an ally in resisting NATO.
Meanwhile, in fact, huge numbers of Taliban
are being incorporated into the new Afghan army (14) which is still
a Fundamentalist army, just more directly under
Imperial control and with an end to local squabbling,
or so they hope.
When Russia was the opposite pole, that was a
problem. Russia had positive ideas and practices
regarding social equality. It was weak on democracy
and sometimes on international morality but strong on
social equality, and this encouraged dangerous
egalitarianism. But with Islamic terrorists as the
opposite pole, when potential opponents are drawn to
the opposite pole, what are they idolizing? The most
backward and fascistic forces - the very people Saudi
Arabia and US used to destroy the secular state in
So these jihad terrorists, the most brutal
killers, who condone violence against women, whose
definition of democracy is enforcing the Quran, who
advocate religious war - these fanatics become the
heroes for kids who want to change the world. What a
Borislav Milosevic: It is a difficult situation.
Regarding this, let me say something about the war on
terror. We in Yugoslavia consider September 11th a tragic
Perhaps your readers are not aware of the horrific
destruction done to my country [during the NATO attack on
Yugoslavia]. This was a war of terror. It was launched to
support terrorists in Kosovo. And it was conducted by
planes dropping bombs, often encased in uranium, from a
great height, not by troops on the ground. Terrible
destruction, massive killings, environmental devastation.
And all carried out from a great height. Against a
country which hadn't invaded or threatened anyone. So this
too was terror. (15)
But we take no satisfaction regarding Sept. 11. On the
contrary, we sympathize with those who have suffered in
It is understandable that people in your country would
have strong reactions when those terrible events happened
last September. But now time has passed. A more
thoughtful approach may be taken. A road of peace may be
pursued. I hope that people in your country will think
deeply about these questions. It is very important to the
Jared Israel: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.
Borislav Milosevic: [In English] OK, Israel. It was
very very big pleasure for me and I am very pleased to
contact to you like this and thank you very much. Very
big pleasure for me.
Jared Israel: Well, thank your mother and father
for having produced two men who have contributed so
much to the world.
Milosevic [Laughs. Says in English]: Don't
Jared Israel: But it's the truth. Where would we
be without Serbia? You resisted. What can I say? The
Serbs seem to do it every time.
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1) 'MEDIA MISREPRESENTATION OF MILOSEVIC'S WORDS: A
REVIEW OF THE EVIDENCE,' by
Professor Francisco Gil-White can be read at
2) 'Milosevic Speech at Kosovo Field (1989),'
can be read at http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html
ADDING THREE LIES, ONE DOES NOT GET THE TRUTH - ONLY A
BIGGER LIE,' is a statement Slobodan Milosevic made
during a pre-'trial' hearing at The Hague. It contradicts
what one might expect Milosevic to say, based on his
portrait as drawn in the Western media. Can be read at
4) In the classic text, 'Seeing
Yugoslavia Through a Dark Glass: Politics, Media and the
Ideology of Globalization,' Diana Johnstone quotes a semi-internal
publication of the very anti-Milosevic International
Crisis Group which states that Albanian secessionists in
fact boycotted Albanian-language institutions in Serbia (as
opposed to having been deprived of such cultural
institutions by supposed racists, as they and the Western
media claimed.) In other words, they and the Western
'experts' lied. The relevant quote is at http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/Johnstone/1yugo.htm#kspring
Ms. Johnstone's article is generally instructive in
seeing through the dark glass of misinformation about
4a) Speaking of 'provocative images,' in
'Art in the New World Order,' written in spring of 2000,
a news photographer discusses the amazing fact that from
1998 to 2000 virtually all the top photojournalism awards
were given for pictures of crying Kosovo Albanian women.
What will future generations make of this? Can be read (and
sample prize winning photos can be seen) at
5) "Afghan Operation Leaves Russia
'Encircled' by US and NATO,"
by Sergey Ptichkin and Aleksey Chichkin can be read at http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/encircle.htm
6) 'Gaping Holes in the 'CIA vs. bin Laden Story,' by Jared Israel can be read at http://emperors-clothes.com/news/probestop-i.htm
6a) 'Bush & the Media Cover up the Jihad
By Jared Israel at
any major power NOT fund the Kostunica campaign?' can
be read at
Black Hole,' by Petar Makara documents that
'Yugoslavia' was removed from the Britanica when the
existence of said country became politically incorrect.
Can be read at http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/multiple/blackhole.html
9) Alijah Izetbegovic was
portrayed in the Western media as a moderate in favor of
a multiethnic Bosnia. Nothing could be further from the
truth. For a revealing quote from his book, "Islamic
Declaration," and a bit on his role during World War
II, see "JOE LIEBERMAN - APOLOGIST FOR THE FASCIST KLA" at
10) 'The Other Side of the
Story,' by Dusan Vilic and Bosko Todorovic.
Written by two retired Yugoslav generals with access to
never-before released army orders, this truly amazing
book documents the ways the Yugoslav Army strove to fight
NATO-backed terrorists in a civilian-friendly way, thus
demonstrating that contrary to Chomsky, counter-terrorism
need not equal terror. The issue of civilian relations is
discussed throughout including in chapter seven which can
be accessed at
The book can be accessed
in full, or, for quicker loading, chapter-by-chapter,
starting with chapter one. For whole book go to
or for chapter one (with link to chapter two, and so on)
U.S. Set Up Anti-Taliban to be Slaughtered,' includes
text of Congressional hearing and comments by Jared
Israel. Go to http://emperors-clothes.com/misc/rohr.htm
stands for Democratic Opposition of Serbia, a charming
use of language, since these 'democrats' overthrew the
elected Yugoslav government and burned the Parliament and
these 'Serbs' were given what were in Serbian terms
astronomical amounts of money by the US and other states
in the new Empire in exchange for 'their' nation. For
more information, see these two texts, which also have
useful references found in 'sections marked Footnotes' or
* a) "Kostunica Says Some Backers 'Unconsciously work
for American Imperial Goals...'"
[Includes the infamous remark that the US shipped
'suitcases of cash' to DOS]
* b) 'US Arrogance
and Yugoslav Elections' at
NATO's use of UN-paid terrorists to attack Macedonia see:
"SORRY, VIRGINIA, BUT THEY ARE NATO TROOPS, NOT
[Note - If you are not familiar with what has been done
to Macedonia, the phrase "UN-paid terrorists"
may sound like the worst hyperbole. But read the article
and you will see that it is understatement.]
14) For documentation of claim that much
of Taliban has been incorporated into the new Afghan
Army, go to
15) In 'Death on
a Very Small Planet' we have posted strikingly
similar pictures of the destruction caused by September
11th and by NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia. Can be viewed
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