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Emperor's Clothes articles on former US Attorney General and current 'Left' leader, Ramsey Clark

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Emperor's Clothes Answers the Slanders

The Krsljanin Tapes, Part 1

* Comments by Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser

* Audio File and Transcript of conversation, evening of 30 May 2003

[Posted 29 September 2003]

=========================================================

Emperor’s Clothes is publishing the audio file and transcript of a telephone conversation between Vladimir Krsljanin and Jared Israel, which took place on 30 May 2003.

Why are we doing this?

As you may know, we, Emperor's Clothes Editors Nico Varkevisser and Jared Israel, have been leaders of the Milosevic support group, ICDSM: Nico Varkevisser as the group's spokesperson; Jared Israel as editorial director.

The other leader was Vladimir Krsljanin. [Pronounced Kersh-lya-nin]

In April of this year it became clear to us that Krsljanin was involved in an effort to put forces associated with former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark in control of the ICDSM. 

In mid-May, Clark appeared on nationwide US television, attacking President Milosevic while posing as his defender.  We did some research on Clark and found he was a supporter of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism and, amazingly, a passionate defender of Nazis. On nationwide TV, Clark *falsely* linked Milosevic to the spiritual guide of the worst terrorists in Egypt - Sheikh Rahman.[4]

Previously, from July to November 2001, we had seen Clark work in cooperation with The Hague Tribunal to sabotage Milosevic’s defense strategy.  (We shall provide hard evidence for this charge in articles to be published shortly.)

Emperor’s Clothes got involved in Milosevic support work for one reason: to defend the Serbian people from the slanderous attacks made against them. Therefore when we realized that Krsljanin’s pro-Clark forces were trying to take over the ICDSM, we exposed Clark in a series of articles on Emperor’s Clothes. [1] & [4]

Our resistance hindered the pro-Clark forces.  Nevertheless, at least on paper, they have taken control of the ICDSM, even claiming they have expelled us.  At the same time, Krsljanin and his associates have vilified us and Emperors Clothes using mass email, website discussion groups and print publications. They have telephoned around the world, pressuring people to break with us. They have even dared publicly to attack our integrity.

It is ironic that because we have defended the Serbs against slander, we now find ourselves being slandered.

These attacks have done great harm.  They have made it impossible for us to function as we did in the past, handling media work for the ICDSM.  For example, one of us (Varkevisser) organized the  press conferences defending Milosevic at The Hague.  But how does one organize a press conference for a group from which one has been expelled? So, this September, when President Milosevic was fighting to be released for an adequate period of time so that he could properly prepare the defense part of the 'trial,' no media work was done at The Hague.  The effect of the attack on us has been to destroy the work of the ICDSM.

========================================================

 A policy of wanton destruction

========================================================

President Slobodan Milosevic tried several times to resolve this ugly conflict. How did our opponents' respond?  After each such effort, they have launched their ugliest attacks. Knowing we would accede to the President's wish for peace, they relished a policy of provocation.

Since most people would never think of fabricating such a campaign of horrible lies, it is natural for people to wonder if at least *some* of the slanderous lies may be true. We find this intolerable.  Therefore we are changing our policy.  In the next week or so we will devote time which frankly we cannot spare to this matter.  

To start with, we will provide hard evidence answering the basic question: Who is telling the truth? 

========================================================

 Who tells the truth? Who lies?

========================================================

The ICDSM is *not* a rank and file organization, where issues are properly resolved by vote.  It is a support group created solely to help the embattled President Slobodan Milosevic get out his message about who caused the destruction of Yugoslavia.  We volunteered to help lead this support work because Milosevic is telling the truth. Otherwise we wouldn't help.

It is entirely appropriate that President Milosevic should decide who leads the ICDSM and what it does. 

Of course, nobody is compelled to agree with Milosevic's  decisions.  But if leaders of *his* support group would act honorably, they must either carry out *his* decisions or resign.

Therefore the basic question regarding the fight in the ICDSM is: who is acting in accord with the President's decisions? And who is acting against them, using his support group for their own ends?

The conflict between us and the Ramsey Clark people came out in the open this past May.  At that time, President Milosevic made certain decisions which he told to Vladimir Krsljanin.

On May 30th, Krsljanin spoke to us and agreed to help implement Milosevic's decisions: to remove Ramsey Clark as official Co-Chairperson of the ICDSM; to have Krsljanin and us work collectively as the ICDSM’s leadership team; to make the ICDSM a small, working group dedicated to concrete tasks rather than creating largely fictitious national branches to push a political agenda, showcasing Ramsey Clark and other well known figures linked to Islamist  terror and Nazism, such as the French attorney, Jacques Vergès. [6]

Subsequently, Krsljanin undermined all these decisions.  Worse, he and his associates have spread the impression that we used President Milosevic’s name to push our own agenda.  Well, we didn’t do this. But *somebody* did.

In the past, ICDSM leadership decisions were made in phone conversations. One of us (Jared Israel) acted as secretary,  taping these conversations so we would have a record. 

To show who is telling the truth and who is lying, we have decided to release the audio file and transcript of at least one of these conversations.

If necessary, we can release other tapes as well. 

Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser
Emperor's Clothes

 ========================================================

Comments on a conversation with  Vladimir Krsljanin

by Jared Israel

========================================================

As part of my duties as a leader of President's Milosevic's support group, the ICDSM, I have routinely taped phone conversations between me, Nico Varkevisser and Vladimir Krsljanin. [Pronounced Kersh-lya-nin]

I was involved in two such conversations on May 30th. 

The first was a conference call with Krsljanin and Nico Varkevisser. In it Krsljanin agreed to work with Varkevisser and me as a 3-way team  to carry out President Milosevic’s decisions:

* To remove Ramsey Clark from the position of co-chairperson of the ICDSM, Milosevic's support group. (Clark had never functioned as part of the ICDSM, let alone its leadership.  But as long as he was listed as co-chairperson he could claim to represent President Milosevic when addressing the media.)

* To keep the ICDSM free of manipulation by organizations such as Ramsey Clark's IAC, linked to the anti-Semitism and Islamic terrorist forces. [2]

As we shall document in an article now in preparation, after these conversations Mr. Krsljanin and his associates began to scheme and manipulate to reverse the President's decisions - first and foremost the decision to remove Ramsey Clark as co-Chairperson.

Indeed, Mr. Krsljanin and his associates have labeled any criticism of Ramsey Clark "gangsterism" and made it grounds for expulsion from the ICDSM! As our friend Andy Wilcoxson wrote, the ICDSM has become the ICDRC: The International Committee to Defend Ramsey Clark.

On August 18th Krsljanin sent out a mass email announcing that:

"The Board of ICDSM informs that Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser are not members of ICDSM. They left the Committee, its goals and commitments in May-June 2003 by launching a series of reckless actions against it and its leading members, even misusing the name of President Milosevic."

The wording here is a bit confusing: were we now being expelled? Or had we previously expelled ourselves? Aside from who expelled us and when, the expulsion was announced in mid-August though it occurred due to "reckless actions" taken "in May-June". 

Also:

1) The announcement and possibly the expulsion was the work of the ICDSM's Board. However, the ICDSM never had a Board.  If one was created, it's a secret: nobody ever announced elections to a Board. Apparently said Board materialized on the 18th for the purpose of announcing our expulsion. 

2) The "leading member" we recklessly acted against was Ramsey Clark and the "reckless actions" were the four articles we published on Emperor's Clothes in May and June, accusing Clark of attacking President Milosevic. [4]

In the phone conversation transcribed below, Krsljanin and I have the following exchange:

[Start excerpt from transcript]

Jared Israel: Look, Vlada, he [i.e., Ramsey Clark] attacked our Friend [i.e., President Milosevic].  Terrible things have been done.  What we have done is, what we have done is to try to defend him [i.e., President Milosevic, by writing our articles about Clark.]. [4]

Vladimir Krsljanin: OK, Jared, please.  You said he attacked him.  And I can agree on that.  But you know that he would never admit that he attacked him.

[End excerpt from transcript]

This conversation took place on May 30th - in the middle of the period when Varkevisser and I engaged in the "reckless action" of criticizing Clark.  And here was Krsljanin, egging us on.

It's enough to make your head spin.

========================================================

 Why Krsljanin phoned me

========================================================

As mentioned above, in the first phone conversation, the one  between me, Krsljanin and Varkevisser, Krsljanin agreed  to carry out President Milosevic's decisions. That Krsljanin was not sincere became clear the same evening, when I received a second and very  urgent call from him. 

Following the earlier conversation I had sent an email informing Ramsey Clark that he was no longer co-Chairperson of the ICDSM, though he could remain as a member. I sent this email in care of John Catalinotto, a leader of Workers World. Clark works closely with Catalinotto. Workers World runs Clark's  groups, IAC and ANSWER. I signed the email Jared Israel, Vladimir Krsljanin and Nico Varkevisser.

This produced quite a storm. Catalinotto phoned Krsljanin's fiancé, Cathrin Schütz, at 4 am European time, waking her up. [3]

Schütz called Krsljanin, who was in Switzerland at the time, waking him up.

And finally Krsljanin called me, waking me as well. 

So my email to Catalinotto was treated by Clark's people as an emergency. 

========================================================

A most revealing tape...

========================================================

A few thoughts before you listen to the tape and/or read the transcript.

First, we three were in the habit of referring to President Slobodan Milosevic as "our Friend." So "our Friend" means Milosevic.

Second, up until that point Krsljanin had denied any strong connection to Ramsey Clark's groups.  But Clark's people had no compunction about waking Krsljanin at 4am. And Krsljanin was panicked when he called me.

Third, during the conversation, Krsljanin and I take as given that Milosevic told us to remove Ramsey Clark as co-Chairperson. Krsljanin never denies this, as of course he would if it weren’t true.  Quite the contrary, he objects to *carrying out* the decision, saying he doesn't want the ICDSM to become a body that acts to carry out Milosevic's will! This stunned me because just a few hours earlier, Krsljanin had stated very convincingly that he would accede to Milosevic's decision. 

Consider the following remarkable exchange. (I have cut some extraneous material - you will find the full text in the transcript and on the audio file.)

The exchange begins with Krsljanin explaining that he had never agreed to sign an email informing Clark he had been removed, and that he said as much to Cathrin Schütz when she phoned. I reply:

[Excerpt begins here]

Jared Israel: But did you say it was true?  [I.e., did you say Clark was removed?]

 Vladimir Krsljanin: I'm sorry?

Jared Israel: Did you say it was true?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I said that we were discussing things but I don't like...I mean, I don't know Jared; I don't know what to say.

Jared Israel: Uh-huh.  Because it *is* true.  Right?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I cannot work that way.  I will resign from everything.

[Excerpt ends here]

What was there about my sending this email that produced three frantic 4 o'clock AM phone calls and caused Krsljanin to lose his customary cool and threaten to resign?

The conversation proceeds with me trying to soothe Krsljanin, urging him not to resign. Then comes the following:

[Excerpt starts here]

Jared Israel: You know, the IAC [i.e., Ramsey Clark's group] is only interested in one thing: the IAC.  As we both know.  They had all those big demonstrations; they didn't say one word about Yugoslavia.  [The text becomes unintelligible as Krsljanin and Israel speak at once] Wait a second, just listen a second -

Vladimir Krsljanin: We agreed that we don't want to make even *them* enemies.

Jared Israel: No. I didn’t agree that we didn't want to make them enemies.  I said that we don't want to cause unnecessary problems. 

Vladimir Krsljanin: Yes.

Jared Israel: But informing him [Ramsey Clark] that he is not any longer in that position is not a provocation; it is a fact.  He can't represent himself that way, Vlada.  He can't say, "I am a vice chairman.”  It's over. He's been removed.  You think we shouldn't tell him that?  What if he gets up tomorrow and says that?  He has to know he can't do it anymore.  That's very important, don't you think?

Vladimir Krsljanin: Yeah, but we don't want to turn Committee into some body which is working on the basis of our Friend's [Milosevic’s] will, so whatever comes to his mind we just fulfill.

[Excerpt ends here]

In other words Krsljanin was saying that the ICDSM, a Committee formed to support Slobodan Milosevic, should not do what President Milosevic asked.  Krsljanin wanted to treat Milosevic like a figure in Madame Tussaud's Hague Wax Museum for Great Victims of NATO.  Of course it is unwise to defy a Great Victim to his face; but one might flatter a Great Victim with seeming agreement, later discretely adjusting said Victim’s decisions so that they fitted one's own - or Ramsey Clark's - agenda.  After all, isn’t life for the living?

Normally Krsljanin was cool as a cucumber in our phone conversations.  But by immediately publicizing the decision to remove Clark -- daring to send a blunt email to Catalinotto -- Varkevisser and I showed we would be "working on the basis of our Friend’s will" and -- horrors! -- doing "whatever comes to his mind" regarding *his* committee.

Krsljanin would not be able to continue as in the past, using the mandate of Milosevic to carry out the agenda of Krsljanin, Ramsey Clark and the IAC.

We had become a major pain in the behind.  That is why all of them lost their cool, and that is why Krsljanin made a 4 AM phone call to me, wherein he talked too much, violating his cardinal rule by saying what he really felt - into a tape recorder, no less.

========================================================

Three final points about the tape...

========================================================

In one place I talk about irrelevant things.  This section is confusing and rather than waste space explaining it, I have set it off in the transcript as follows: [irrelevant text].

In the transcript I use brackets to clarify some unclear phrases. For example, the sentence, "What did you say to her?” is written, "What did you say to her [i.e., to Cathrin Schütz]?"

It will be easier for you to follow the audio if you read the transcript as you listen. A Serbo-Croatian translation of the transcript is now posted.
http://emperors-clothes.com/serbo-croatian/articles/s-krsljanin1.htm 

I have highlighted some parts of the transcript I consider most important.

Finally, the tape begins a minute or two into our actual conversation.  I was sleeping at my desk when awakened by Krsljanin’s phone call. For a few minutes I forgot to turn on the tape recorder.

* The MP3 file is at
http://emperor.vwh.net/audio/tape1.mp3
 

* For streaming audio -- immediate play -- left click on the file.

* To download -- most consistent quality -- right click, then click on "save target as."

========================================================

Transcript of Audio file of conversation between Jared Israel and Vladimir Krsljanin

Recorded on the evening of May 30th in the US and the morning of May 31st in Europe

========================================================

Jared Israel: And all I said was to inform him.  [I.e., I sent Ramsey Clark an email saying he was no longer Co-Chairman of the ICDSM.] And if he wanted to be a member [of the ICDSM, rather than its co-chairperson, which he could no longer be] he should let us know.  We have to tell him that.  We have to tell him that because if we don't tell him that then we don't know whether to continue him as a member.  This isn't a game.  This is a serious matter.

Vladimir Krsljanin: But you keep for two weeks the [ICDSM] website without the list of the committee members -

Jared Israel: Uh-huh.

Vladimir Krsljanin: -- and you remove him [i.e., Clark] as co-Chairman from the list of [petition] signatories.

Jared Israel: Right, that was something you and I discussed.  Look, Vlada, he attacked our Friend.  Terrible things have been done.  What we have done is, what we have done is to try to defend him [Milosevic].

Vladimir Krsljanin: OK, but Jared, please. You said he [Clark] attacked him [Milosevic]. And I can agree on that. But you know that he would never admit that he attacked him.

Jared Israel: We [Varkevisser and I] don't care about whether he would admit it.  Doesn't matter whether he would admit it.  He did [attack Milosevic].  And we have to defend our Friend.  Now, you know I'm not --

Vladimir Krsljanin: ...[unintelligible] the way to defend him.

Jared Israel: Huh? What?  What'd you say?  Look, you know, it's a shame that John Catalinotto...that John so easily can get hold of Cathrin.  Isn't it?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I don't know.

Jared Israel: It's a shame that John can so easily get hold of her.

[At this point a phone call to Jared interrupts the conversation]

Jared Israel: Well now we've disrupted both [our lives] because that's my girlfriend who I can't talk to.  The -- it's a shame that [Ramsey Clark's associate] John [Catalinotto] just has to make a phone call to get hold of her [i.e., Cathrin Schütz].  What is she, IAC?  Is he an intimate friend?

Vladimir Krsljanin: You know that she has sympathies toward them and it's hard for me to break it.  But ohh...

Jared Israel: Well, you know...I don't know what to tell you Vlada. I said to you when we were talking [about Milosevic's decision to remove Clark from the co-Chairmanship, earlier] tonight, you have to understand this is not a painless situation. Can't be. There's no way around that. Anyway that wasn't done as a --

[Notice that I am stunned by the speed with which Clark's leadership group contacted Krsljanin and by Krsljanin's desperate tone, so unlike him. I am realizing that he is not the person I thought he was; for one thing, his connection to the Clark forces is intense. I can see that his seeming agreement earlier in the evening was a ruse. He was buying time. By sending out the email I have made clear that Krsljanin cannot expect Varkevisser and me to keep silent about the removal of Clark, and this prospect has unnerved Krsljanin: he is losing his room to maneuver. ]

Vladimir Krsljanin: Let's not make additional pain.

Jared Israel: Well I wasn't trying to make any pain.  I was just trying to do what I thought we had agreed.  I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.  It certainly wasn't done to wake you up in the middle of the night, Vlada.  Really.  It wasn't done to do that at all.  And me as well, by the way.

Vladimir Krsljanin: The most important thing is Ramsey Clark and most important thing is that [so] soon we appear[ed in that email sent to Clark via John Catalinotto] with our three signatures together. I mean, ohhhhhhhhhhh -

Jared Israel: That we appear, yeah, that's...I'm sorry, what?  You were groaning and I apologize for interrupting your groan but I missed what you said.

Vladimir Krsljanin: I said this is childish.

Jared Israel: The situation?  What I did?  Her calling you? All of the three?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I don't know. I don't know.  I can't think. I don't know.  I must sleep.  I'm sorry.

[Irrelevant text begins here]

Jared Israel: Well, let me make a, you know I was thinking after we got off the phone [earlier in the evening] that when you're making your proposal tomorrow [at a meeting Krsljanin would be attending], that the things we were discussing about Yugoslavia put you in a very strong position because then it doesn't appear in the least ideological.

[Irrelevant text ends here]

Vladimir Krsljanin: But why we didn't start with what we agreed, to have a statement supporting the demonstration [scheduled for June 28th at The Hague]? [5]

Jared Israel: I'm not saying we shouldn't do that.  Let's do it.  I'm not saying that in the least...What did you say to her [i.e., to Cathrin Schütz]?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I couldn't even talk to her. I mean I cannot say I signed it [i.e., that email] when I -

Jared Israel: But why should she call you? Why did she wake you up in the middle of --

Vladimir Krsljanin: I never agreed to send such an email [informing Clark he was removed] and I had to say it.

Jared Israel: Well that put you in an awkward position. But did you say it was true? [I.e., did you say that he was in fact removed?] Did you?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I'm sorry?

Jared Israel: Did you say it was true?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I said that we were discussing things but I don't like, I mean, I don't know Jared; I don't know what to say.

Jared Israel: Uh huh. Because it *is* true. Right?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I cannot work that way. I will resign from everything.

Jared Israel: Well, you know if you resign from everything you leave us in a very bad position.  That would be very harmful.

Vladimir Krsljanin: Not only you.

Jared Israel: I said [it would put] all of us in a very bad position.  You know, the IAC [i.e., Ramsey Clark's group] is only interested in one thing: the IAC.  As we both know.  They had all those big demonstrations; they didn't say one word about Yugoslavia.  [The text becomes unintelligible as Krsljanin and I speak at once.] Wait a second, just listen a second --

Vladimir Krsljanin: We agreed that we don't want to make even *them* enemies.

Jared Israel: No. I didn't agree that we don't want to make them enemies.  I said that we don't want to cause unnecessary problems. 

Vladimir Krsljanin: Yes.

Jared Israel: But informing him [i.e., Ramsey Clark] that he's not any longer in that position is not a provocation; it is a fact. He can't represent himself that way, Vlada. He can't say, "I am a vice chairman." It's over. He's been removed. You think we shouldn't tell him that? How can he poss- what if he gets up tomorrow and says it? He has to know he can't do it anymore. That's very important. Don't you think?

Vladimir Krsljanin: Yeah, but we don't want to turn Committee into some body which is working on the basis of our Friend's [i.e., Milosevic's] will, so whatever comes to his mind we just fulfill.

Jared Israel: Well you --

Vladimir Krsljanin: He said to Nico which he didn't say to me that the three of us should run it [i.e., the ICDSM] by consent. 

Jared Israel: What, he didn't say that to you?

Vladimir Krsljanin: No.

Jared Israel: Oh, I see.

Vladimir Krsljanin: But I believe that he said that.

Jared Israel: Uh-huh.

Vladimir Krsljanin: It doesn't meant that we are a leadership of the Committee imposed by him.

Jared Israel: Well look --

Vladimir Krsljanin: I think that he thought much more about the essence that we should act in that way and not appear tomorrow publicly that we are --

Jared Israel: By what authority - let me ask you a couple of questions.  In the past, by what authority did you set up the Committee [i.e., the ICDSM]?  Who gave you the authority?

Vladimir Krsljanin: Ok, but --

Jared Israel: No. I asked you a question.

Vladimir Krsljanin: I never said that -

Jared Israel: Who gave you the authority?

Vladimir Krsljanin: I never said it in written [form] to anybody.

Jared Israel: That's all right.  Who gave you the authority to set up the Committee [i.e., the ICDSM] in the past?

Vladimir Krsljanin: Well one thing is having authority; another thing is going around and advertising it.

Jared Israel: Well, I'm not advocating that we go around and advertise everything. I'm saying we have to let the man [i.e., Ramsey Clark] know that he's not any longer in that position.  This has been a committee which has been in fact in the past your dictatorship.  Now it's a triumvirate.  That [i.e., Krsljanin's dictatorship] was the situation before.  You would say, "You may do this."  That was the situation.  'May' means permit.  That was by authority vested in you by *him* [i.e., Milosevic]. That's why we accepted that. This is *his* [i.e., Milosevic’s] committee.

[Brief squabble]

Vladimir Krsljanin: You two can be co-chairmen and I will withdraw.

Jared Israel: No...You can do that if you want to. 

Vladimir Krsljanin: [unintelligible] I am not International, I am Serbian and, OK.

Jared Israel: Oh! You're -- ...We're not talking about *us* [i.e., Varkevisser and me, who are not Serbian] we're talking about *him* [i.e., Milosevic].  The reason that you were in that position was by authority vested in you by *him*.  Because it's his support committee. And you reported to us what he wanted.  And that’s the situation.  This is a support committee for him; this isn't a mass organization of the people.  It's a support committee for a man.  You understand? Like a fan club.  It's his support committee.  It was not a democracy.  When you said [in criticism of our Ramsey Clark articles] that we didn't follow proper forms, [the truth is that up until that point] we never consulted anyone but you.  If we thought that you would disagree with something we consulted you because of the authority vested in you by him.  That has nothing to do with being Serbian or anything else; it has to do with having a structure, and that structure is perfectly reasonable, like a corporation.  Not a democracy.  And when...that's the situation.  Now the [changed] situation is that we're acting based on discussion with him [i.e., Milosevic].  We're not going to -- if you want to leave that's your choice.  That's you're choice. But then you'll be acting against what he asked us to do.  And that might be something…a person might have to do that sometimes.  But as we said we're not trying to put you in a position --

Vladimir Krsljanin: I don't know what will I do. I have that pain in my stomach right now. I have to sleep.  Just I please ask you one thing: never sign me without asking me.

Jared Israel: Well I am sorry if that's the case. I thought we had discussed that explicitly. And we talked for a very long time and I thought that we had discussed that explicitly, that we had to send him a note.  I can't send him a note if there are three of us working on this [and the note is] from the two of us. [I.e., I couldn't send a note that was signed by Varkevisser and me but not by Krsljanin.]

Vladimir Krsljanin: Maybe you are right; maybe we had to do it. But please ask me.

Jared Israel: Listen Vlada, I'm sorry if I put you in an awkward position.  I think it's obvious that we're not trying to put you in an awkward position.  Not in the least.  We're not trying to do that in least. It's disruptive.  Aside from the fact that you're our friend; I don't want you wakened up in the middle of the night when you have to do this [i.e., speak at a meeting] tomorrow. That's terrible.  But she [i.e., Cathrin Schütz] also should not have called you in the middle of the night because [Ramsey Clark's associate] John Catalinotto -

Vladimir Krsljanin: Well, she's a weak person; she's too emotional; she's whatever; and she finished that [?] when I told her- 

Jared Israel: Look there's another side to that.  The website now has Ramsey Clark moved down and no longer vice chairman [in the list of ICDSM members]. So if - all they have to do is see that and immediately they want to know is that true.  It puts you immediately in the same position.  And then you know what they could say?  ”How could you do that without even informing us.”  Right?  No matter what you do they'll make a point.  And they'd have a point.  They'd say, "It's not even serious; you did not even tell us." 

Vladimir Krsljanin: OK. I can't speak anymore. 

Jared Israel: Well I hope you can sleep.

[Small talk until end of tape]

* Footnotes and Further Reading follows the fundraising appeal. *

========================================================

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Footnotes and Further Reading

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[1] Regarding the demonization of the Serbian people, see "The Obligatory Bash - Etiquette for a Brave New World," by Jared Israel at  http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/obligato.htm

[2] See Colin Meade's letter to Emperor's Clothes, "Activist/Writer on Yugoslavia Supports EC on Jacques Vergès and Ramsey Clark," at
http://emperors-clothes.com/letters/meade.htm 

[3] Cathrin Schütz is apparently a leading activist in Ramsey Clark's IAC.  On June 18th, the German leftist paper, Junge Welt, published a puff-piece interview with Clark, showcasing him as a big supporter of President Milosevic.  The interviewer was Cathrin Schütz. 

[4]Our articles on Ramsey Clark (so far) are:

* "Ramsey Clark Poses as Milosevic's Lawyer...
...
and then smears the "client" on nationwide U.S. television!" at
http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/ramsey1.htm

* "More on how Ramsey Clark Attacked Milosevic at
the National Press Club,"
http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/ramsey2.htm

* "Ramsey Clark's IAC Accuses us of Slander, but they get the facts wrong..." (discusses Clark's June 29 2001 flight to Belgrade) at http://emperors-clothes.com/ramsey/ramsey3.htm

* "How Ramsey Clark Labored to Protect Nazi Émigrés," at http://emperors-clothes.com/ramsey/ramsey4.htm

[5] The demonstration in question was a small protest held June 28th at The Hague. It was planned at a meeting of Mr. Krsljanin, Klaus Hartmann, Klaus von Raussendorf and a few other people in Germany in April. (Hartmann and von Raussdendorf are closely connected to Ramsey Clark and the Workers World/IAC).

Organized by Mr. Krsljanin's pro-Clark faction, we think the demonstration was intended to showcase Ramsey Clark.  However, by publishing our articles on Clark, we made this politically impractical. And then of course, President Milosevic compounded the felony by removing Clark as co-Chairperson of the ICDSM. (Since doing harm to Clark has been presented by Krsljanin as grounds for expulsion from the new ICDSM, perhaps President Milosevic will be expelled.)

[6] Our articles so far dealing with French attorney Jacques Vergès are:

* "Nazi Financier Francois Genoud Bankrolled Lawyer Jacques Vergès and Muslim Terrorists: Who was Genoud?"
by Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser http://emperors-clothes.com/genoud-verges.htm

* "Jacques Vergès Says he's Milosevic's Attorney: It's a Lie,"
by Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser
http://emperors-clothes.com/verges/notlawyer.htm


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